Me Geek, You Geek

Jon, let me say this respectfully (that really is what I'm all about and always have been), but I'm not sure this debate is all that interesting. And I actually think you should drop the book if it's not to your liking. You want something from your comics that Brubaker's Daredevil isn't going to deliver. Daredevil is no longer a traditional superhero comic. You may bemoan that fact, whereas I think the book is better for it. But that's where we will agree to disagree.

About Daredevil's senses, I must admit I always get a little annoyed when people suggest that he should somehow be aware of everything going on simultaneously. I don't even know where people get this idea (okay, so Bendis wrote the character that way, much to my dismay, but that's the only writer I can think of who did). Are you honestly suggesting that he should be aware of someone taking pictures of him with a telephoto lens from possibly more than one block away? And, if so, how would he separate this person from all the other people out there who just happen to be out photographing the night sky or taking pictures of their children in their living rooms? That's the one thing people seem to miss about this whole heightened senses deal. Why would he just magically pick up on the events that concern him, specifically? Isn't that just a little too convenient? Having heightened senses does not mean that you can automatically process all of that input. Most of what you hear and smell is completely irrelevant garbage. It's background noise. The sound of a camera wouldn't necessarily arouse suspicion because 99 times out of 100, it has absolutely nothing to do with him.

There have certainly been cases where I think that Brubaker has underestimated the power of Matt's senses, but for the most part he treats them very realistically. Rather than having "realistic" be a dirty word here, I find that to be one of the best aspects of Brubaker's writing, whereas I found it to be one of the weak points of the (otherwise stellar) Bendis run.

We are not going to have a nice juicy debate about this because I think we have each made our points already. The qualities you look for in a book are different from the ones I look for. There is no right and wrong, it's simply a matter of taste. Consequently, there can be no "winner" here.

I thought that the fall of the Kingpin arc was great as well (except for DD reading a computer screen by touch which I will consider to be pure garbage for as long as I live), but I don't necessarily think of that story and the one we are seeing here to be all that different. I don't even remember the action scenes from that arc, that's not what I take away from it. Nor are the action scenes what I take away from the current arc.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, and I'm sorry, but I won't debate you on it. There's really no point.

Respectfully, Christine

Jon, why do you read this title? Is it because you ENJOY giving us useless stats about how much *whatever* is in a given issue? Because THAT, my dear fanboy, is yawn-worthy.

To answer something that you asked in a previous post, I've read the entire title, a good portion of it on the first run. When I told that to Marvel publisher Dan Buckley at Wizard World Texas a couple of years ago, he said something close to the effect of "Well, you've read some pretty awful sh*t over the years, then." I must say that I agree.

The Brubaker run, however, I don't believe fits in this category. Most of Bendis' didn't either, although my jury is still out on Decalogue. As I've said on another forum, I like to have a plot that isn't telegraphed to me six issues ahead. (Much less, six pages ahead.) I find no point in reading a story where it's villian makes trouble, superhero finds out, they fight tooth and nail, repeat. That just doesn't do it for me.

So, I must also agree to disagree with your assessment of DD #114. It just ain't your daddy's superhero comic anymore, no matter what you want it to be.

DD #114 (my opinion):

- Lots of Foggy pannels, ergo... a thumbs up issue as far as I am related ;p

I guess I'll consider the debate closed with certain individuals, but certainly not everyone. And the word debate isn't even the best word to use to capture the essence of what has happened. I think of these posts/comments as more of a discussion. I believe that sharing your opinion, while listening to the opinions of others, is exactly what comic book reading is about.

I love the fact that blogs and forums and emails between fans can happen after an issue comes out. It takes me back to 1995, standing in the comic book store on a Wednesday debating the finer points of each comic book.

Of course, not everyone was interested in the discussion, some just wanted to come in, buy their books and go on their merry way. So obviously, if you aren't interested in discussing and listening to different opinions then I guess a discussion/blog medium is not the best forum for you.

I, however, began MGYG with just this type of discussion in mind. I did not have in mind that I wanted to only find like minded people who would agree with everything I said. I was hoping for a healthly, respectful discussion...and I believe this to be just that.

As for the comment someone made about there being no winner. Again, I didn't consider this a competition. We are all winners because we all get to buy a comic book that we've been collecting for eons and write what we like and dislike. What's better than that?

And if someone 'won', or worse; we all agreed, well, that would be pretty damn boring.

And the whole notion that I should drop the book, a book I've been collecting for decades and own over 400 issues because I'm not fully satisisfied over the last year's worth of storytelling is pretty mind boggling to me. It's akin to telling someone to move out of the country they love if they're not happy with the results of an election.

Saying that seems like such a cheap shot. As if not loving the current direction of a title should disqualify you from a seat at the discussion table.

It is possible to love a character but not the current direction of the story.

The pendulum will swing back around and I'll be fully satiated once again.

And it doesn't look like I'm alone in my thinking about the current DD issues, based on some e-mails I've been receiving and most importantly recent Daredevil sales data. A lot of Daredevil fans apparently feel the same way, but they ARE jumping ship!

You may be one who does not like that I look to statitics for some analysis, but if we want to honestly discuss how many readers are liking or disliking the new direction, well, I think the sales numbers are very telling.

As of the summer of 2008, Daredevil hit it's lowest sales numbers since it's relaunch in 1998. During the summer of 2008, the DD book sales fell under the $40,000 mark. Yikes! There's been a slight rebound since (Lady Bullseye interest no doubt), but overall, sales are still down.

What relaunched in 1998 with the Kevin Smith #1 at 91,000 copies sold has dipped considerably.

So I ran the numbers, looking at the averages of the three writers responsible for the greatest amount of issues since the relaunch.

This is what I found:

1. Kevin Smith: Avg. 82,000 issues sold per month.
2. Brian Michael Bendis: Avg. 55,000 issues sold per month.
3. Ed Brubaker: Avg. 46,000 issues sold per month.

If we look at rank (Top 100) we find the following averages:

1. Kevin Smith: Avg. 11.75 rank per month.
2. Brian Michael Bendis: Avg. 19.85 rank per month.
3. Ed Brubaker: Avg. 45.87 rank per month.

And the last several months has seen DD dip out of the top 50 books! Ouch!

This is clearly an indication that readers are not happy with new direction of the book. Which might be fine if DD was picking up new readers...but this isn't the case. So I hope DD is not moving towards the cancellation black hole once again!

Apparently this isn't my daddy's superhero anymore...but soon this superhero may not have his own book anymore.

I do appreciate candor and dissent here at MGYG...passion in comics is where it's all at. And I won't shy away fron anyone who wants to have a dialogue about their thoughts for a particular comic related topic. It's not about being right...it's about the discussion.

And hey, if you don't think this is a viable or interesting discussion anymore, than by all means, please feel free to ignore me. I'll miss your point of view and the interesting ideas you bring to the table, but such is life.

These are my thoughts, love them or leave them.

P.S. to Gloria: And he was finally able to throw some back at Matt! Finally!

P.S.S to Christine: Yes, I do think that his SUPER senses should have been used better in these last several issues. They are super for a reason. If for nothing else, to have his abilities be more consistent, one way or another (one of my biggest gripes with the Bendis' run was the lack of using his senses). But if nothing else, let's at least agree that Matt should have the (super) sense enough to at least draw the blinds when he's cheating on his blind, and recently hospitalized, wife!

Jon, you are blowing this way of of proportion. Not once have I said something to the effect that I don't like debate (discussion) or that I won't engage in debate or discussion with you. If you bring up something I want to talk about i would be happy to respond, and I encourage you to do the same with me. When I said I meant no disrespect, I really meant that.

The reason I may have sounded harsh in my latest comment was that I was worried we would be stuck having the same discussion every time an issue comes out. Since we've debated this back and forth a few times and each clarified our respective points, I felt that there was nowhere new or interesting for the debate to go, and I also didn't feel like you were adding something new to it in your latest post.

As for what you said here, we could certainly debate sales numbers, and I won't deny that a sizable proportion of DD readers aren't liking the new direction. I still argue that most are, and some find it to be the best it's ever been. But that's a matter of difference in taste.

Simply looking at sales numbers the way you do here is not a good representation of what's really happening. Especially since you're comparing it to Kevin Smith, which was (and you must realize this too) as much about the hype as it was about the story. They did a big thing for the re-launch, and lots of new readers who had never even read DD before picked it up because of the writer's notoriety.

Guardian Devil was also one of the first DD stories I read, and I almost threw it away in disgust (Matt threatening Karen with hell for not going to church with him, when the character had barely set foot inside a church for 30+ years?) If I hadn't read most of the Miller stuff before then, that would have been the end of Daredevil for me. Thank god I gave the rest of it a chance. For me, those numbers say nothing about the quality of the story, which I didn't like at all.

I would love for DD so sell better, and the title is dropping (in numbers of copies sold). However, if you want a complete picture, you also need to look at how the numbers compare to other titles. The fact is that DD is losing fewer readers than almost all the other comics out there and that it holds steady in the rankings at around 45th. I'll admit, I wish it was gaining readers, but in a market where most titles are losing, that does need to be taken into account.

About the senses... Matt's senses have been heightened to a superhuman level. Not once does it say that the character should possess superhuman knowledge or awareness of everything he hears, smells or senses. You're right in that Bendis didn't overtly mention the senses much, but they were often used in ways that struck me as odd. The scene from Trial of the Century that has him sitting on the top of the building hearing the jury deliberate in the basement bothered me to no end. He shouldn't be able to hear that. And you know why? Because that sound physically stopped existing several floors down (yes, hearing things from far away on an open street is a different matter). Yes, it's a comic book and I'll allow for small stretches, but I prefer not to have the laws of physics broken in a book about a character whose powers don't include breaking the laws of physics. The same way I don't want him magically noticing a scent or sound that happens to have "his name" on it for no other reason than that it's targeted at him. That is too old school for me - and too convenient. But whether people prefer DD to be written as high-powered or low-powered is something else that readers disagree on.

I'll admit that it was harsh of me to tell you to drop the book. Especially since I wouldn't do the same myself in a million years, and I probably would bitch and moan about it if I didn't like the direction. I really just reacted the way I did because I didn't want to get stuck in the same debate again. If I had said nothing, that would have been me ignoring you, and I don't turn my back on people in the middle of a conversation. I had to explain why that particular discussion was over, as far as I was concerned. I would rather spend that time writing posts for my blog.

I am all about discussion, and I prefer it to be civil. I didn't feel that I introduced anything here that was less than civil, but if you feel that way, I apologize. And yes, Matt should have closed the blinds.

So we agree the following rule should be applied to all superheroes:

Rule 15.c.64.iii:

If you lose your moral, heroic bearings and begin becoming aware of someone else's carnal knowledge, said someone not being your spouse, you must take proper action to close any blinds which may be hung in the dwelling in which you are gaining carnal knowledge.

the other hand - it's always good to see more Iron Fist.